ADAC Rallye Deutschland 2017

ADAC Rallye Deutschland 2017


17. 08. 2017 - 20. 08. 2017

Unofficial results
List for category: All
SS 16 - Freisen 2
SS length: 14.78km
Pos. No. Driver / Co-driver
Vehicle		 Group SS time Aver. speed
sec/km		 Diff.Leader
Diff.Prev.
1 1
FRA 		Ogier S. / Ingrassia J.
Ford Fiesta WRC		 RC1 00:08:44.8 101.39
0.00		 00:00:00.0
00:00:00.0
2 10
FIN 		Latvala J. / Anttila Miikka
Toyota Yaris WRC		 RC1 00:08:45.2 101.31
0.03		 00:00:00.4
00:00:00.4
3 9
NOR 		Mikkelsen A. / Jæger Anders
Citroën C3 WRC		 RC1 00:08:45.5 101.25
0.05		 00:00:00.7
00:00:00.3
4 2
EST 		Tänak Ott / Järveoja M.
Ford Fiesta WRC		 RC1 00:08:45.9 101.18
0.07		 00:00:01.1
00:00:00.4
5 4
NZL 		Paddon Hayden / Marshall S.
Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC		 RC1 00:08:46.5 101.06
0.12		 00:00:01.7
00:00:00.6
6 8
IRL 		Breen Craig / Martin Scott
Citroën C3 WRC		 RC1 00:08:47.1 100.94
0.16		 00:00:02.3
00:00:00.6
7 6
ESP 		Sordo Dani / Martí Marc
Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC		 RC1 00:08:49.2 100.54
0.30		 00:00:04.4
00:00:02.1
8 12
FIN 		Lappi Esapekka / Ferm Janne
Toyota Yaris WRC		 RC1 00:08:51.4 100.13
0.45		 00:00:06.6
00:00:02.2
9 3
GBR 		Evans Elfyn / Barritt Daniel
Ford Fiesta WRC		 RC1 00:08:51.8 100.05
0.47		 00:00:07.0
00:00:00.4
10 11
FIN 		Hänninen Juho / Lindström Kaj
Toyota Yaris WRC		 RC1 00:08:57.7 98.95
0.87		 00:00:12.9
00:00:05.9
11 14
DEU 		Kremer Armin / Winklhofer P.
Ford Fiesta WRC		 RC1 00:09:11.3 96.51
1.79		 00:00:26.5
00:00:13.6
12 34
CZE 		Kopecký Jan / Dresler Pavel
Škoda Fabia R5		 RC2 00:09:15.8 95.73
2.10		 00:00:31.0
00:00:04.5
13 33
FRA 		Camilli Eric / Veillas B.
Ford Fiesta R5		 RC2 00:09:18.4 95.29
2.27		 00:00:33.6
00:00:02.6
14 32
FIN 		Suninen Teemu / Markkula Mikko
Ford Fiesta R5		 RC2 00:09:21.0 94.84
2.45		 00:00:36.2
00:00:02.6
15 31
SWE 		Tidemand Pontus / Andersson Jonas
Škoda Fabia R5		 RC2 00:09:21.5 94.76
2.48		 00:00:36.7
00:00:00.5
16 42
FRA 		Loubet P. / Landais Vincent
Ford Fiesta R5		 RC2 00:09:21.7 94.73
2.50		 00:00:36.9
00:00:00.2
17 39
FRA 		Gilbert Quentin / Jamoul Renaud
Škoda Fabia R5		 RC2 00:09:23.1 94.49
2.59		 00:00:38.3
00:00:01.4
18 40
GBR 		Greensmith Gus / Parry Craig
Ford Fiesta R5		 RC2 00:09:23.9 94.36
2.65		 00:00:39.1
00:00:00.8
19 41
DEU 		Griebel Marijan / Kopczyk Stefan
Škoda Fabia R5		 RC2 00:09:24.3 94.29
2.67		 00:00:39.5
00:00:00.4
20 48
GBR 		Armstrong Jon / O’Sullivan N.
Ford Fiesta R5		 RC2 00:09:25.4 94.11
2.75		 00:00:40.6
00:00:01.1
21 45
FRA 		Bonato Yoann / Boulloud B.
Citroën DS3 R5		 RC2 00:09:28.2 93.64
2.94		 00:00:43.4
00:00:02.8
22 44
SWE 		Bergkvist Emil / Fløene Ola
Citroën DS3 R5		 RC2 00:09:29.7 93.40
3.04		 00:00:44.9
00:00:01.5
23 38
FRA 		Rossel Yohan / Fulcrand B.
Citroën DS3 R5		 RC2 00:09:32.5 92.94
3.23		 00:00:47.7
00:00:02.8
24 37
ROU 		Tempestini S. / Bernacchini G.
Citroën DS3 R5		 RC2 00:09:33.0 92.86
3.26		 00:00:48.2
00:00:00.5
25 36
MEX 		Guerra Benito / Cue Daniel
Škoda Fabia R5		 RC2 00:09:35.4 92.47
3.42		 00:00:50.6
00:00:02.4
26 72
KOR 		Lim Chewon / Wydaeghe M.
Hyundai i20 R5		 RC2 00:09:40.0 91.74
3.73		 00:00:55.2
00:00:04.6
27 47
NLD 		Ten Brinke B. / Thierie Davy
Škoda Fabia R5		 RC2 00:09:41.5 91.50
3.84		 00:00:56.7
00:00:01.5
28 43
POL 		Pieniążek Ł. / Mazur P.
Peugeot 208 T16		 RC2 00:09:47.8 90.52
4.26		 00:01:03.0
00:00:06.3
29 76
FIN 		Huttunen Jari / Linnaketo Antti
Opel Adam R2		 RC4 00:10:05.7 87.85
5.47		 00:01:20.9
00:00:17.9
30 22
FRA 		Raoux J. / Galmiche I.
Citroën DS3 WRC		 RC1 00:10:09.7 87.27
5.74		 00:01:24.9
00:00:04.0
31 74
CZE 		Rujbr Patrik / Římalová V.
Škoda Fabia R5		 RC2 00:10:11.1 87.07
5.84		 00:01:26.3
00:00:01.4
32 78
DEU 		Gassner H. / Kramer Jasmin
Toyota GT86 CS-R3		 RC3 00:10:15.2 86.49
6.12		 00:01:30.4
00:00:04.1
33 80
IRL 		Boland Eamonn / Morrissey M.
Ford Fiesta R5		 RC2 00:10:16.5 86.31
6.20		 00:01:31.7
00:00:01.3
34 77
NLD 		Van der Marel T. / Van der Marel R.
Opel Adam R2		 RC4 00:10:18.8 85.99
6.36		 00:01:34.0
00:00:02.3
35 64
FRA 		Ciamin Nicolas / De La Haye T.
Ford Fiesta R2T		 RC4 00:10:20.5 85.75
6.47		 00:01:35.7
00:00:01.7
36 73
BEL 		Fumal Armand / Louette Michael
Citroën DS3 R5		 RC2 00:10:22.5 85.47
6.61		 00:01:37.7
00:00:02.0
37 23
BEL 		Serderidis J. / Miclotte F.
Citroën DS3 WRC		 RC1 00:10:22.7 85.45
6.62		 00:01:37.9
00:00:00.2
38 66
DEU 		Tannert Julius / Heigl Jürgen
Ford Fiesta R2T		 RC4 00:10:22.9 85.42
6.64		 00:01:38.1
00:00:00.2
39 63
ESP 		Solans Nil / Ibañez Miquel
Ford Fiesta R2T		 RC4 00:10:24.4 85.21
6.74		 00:01:39.6
00:00:01.5
40 61
FRA 		Astier Raphaël / Vauclare F.
Peugeot 208 R2		 RC4 00:10:26.2 84.97
6.86		 00:01:41.4
00:00:01.8
41 88
DEU 		Gropp Uwe / Ostlender Hanna
Citroën DS3 R3T		 RC3 00:10:33.2 84.03
7.33		 00:01:48.4
00:00:07.0
42 86
FIN 		Lario Taisko / Hämäläinen T.
Peugeot 208 R2		 RC4 00:10:41.7 82.92
7.91		 00:01:56.9
00:00:08.5
43 79
NLD 		Vossen Henk / Van Barschot S.
Ford Fiesta R5		 RC2 00:10:47.2 82.21
8.28		 00:02:02.4
00:00:05.5
44 90
ITA 		Molinaro Tamara / Engan Veronica
Opel Adam R2		 RC4 00:11:02.7 80.29
9.33		 00:02:17.9
00:00:15.5
45 62
ITA 		Brazzoli Enrico / Barone Maurizio
Peugeot 208 R2		 RC4 00:11:05.5 79.95
9.52		 00:02:20.7
00:00:02.8
46 91
DEU 		Lauer Frank / Brack Martin
Citroën DS3 R3T		 RC3 00:11:27.6 77.38
11.01		 00:02:42.8
00:00:22.1
47 83
DEU 		Klein Marius / Grimberg H.
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X		 RC2 00:11:29.1 77.21
11.12		 00:02:44.3
00:00:01.5
48 87
FRA 		Wendling Y. / Di Nisi Laurent
Peugeot 208 R2		 RC4 00:11:31.7 76.92
11.29		 00:02:46.9
00:00:02.6
49 95
DEU 		Hohlheimer J. / Sanesi Sandro
Renault Twingo R2		 RC4 00:11:39.6 76.05
11.83		 00:02:54.8
00:00:07.9
50 94
DEU 		Ehlhardt W. / Michel Helmut
Opel Astra OPC		 RC2 00:12:11.9 72.70
14.01		 00:03:27.1
00:00:32.3
51 96
DEU 		Bächle C. / Brack Isabelle
Citroën DS3 R1		 RC5 00:12:50.0 69.10
16.59		 00:04:05.2
00:00:38.1
52 5
BEL 		Neuville T. / Gilsoul Nicolas
Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC		 RC1 00:15:44.8 56.32
28.42		 00:07:00.0
00:02:54.8
- 7
GBR 		Meeke Kris / Nagle Paul
Citroën C3 WRC		 RC1 00:15:44.8 56.32
28.42		 00:07:00.0
00:00:00.0
54 75
DEU 		Gassner Hermann / Thannhäuser K.
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X		 RC2 00:15:58.6 55.51
29.35		 00:07:13.8
00:00:13.8
55 49
NLD 		Schilt Edwin / Bakker Lisette
Škoda Fabia R5		 RC2 00:16:15.8 54.53
30.51		 00:07:31.0
00:00:17.2
56 71
DEU 		Kreim Fabian / Christian Frank
Škoda Fabia R5		 RC2 00:16:40.0 53.21
32.15		 00:07:55.2
00:00:24.2
57 81
BEL 		Molle Amaury / Herman Renaud
Peugeot 208 R2		 RC4 00:17:05.7 51.87
33.89		 00:08:20.9
00:00:25.7
- 89
GBR 		Williams Tom / Hall Philip
Ford Fiesta R2		 RC4 00:17:05.7 51.87
33.89		 00:08:20.9
00:00:00.0
59 93
DEU 		Wecker Josef / Clemens Stefan
Renault Clio R3T		 RC3 00:17:15.2 51.40
34.53		 00:08:30.4
00:00:09.5
60 65
FRA 		Folb Terry / Guieu C.
Ford Fiesta R2T		 RC4 00:17:20.5 51.14
34.89		 00:08:35.7
00:00:05.3
Pos. No.
Driver / Co-driver
Vehicle		 Pos. SS time
Penalty		 Total time Diff.Leader
Diff.Prev.
1 2
EST
1		 Tänak Ott / Järveoja M.
Ford Fiesta WRC  		RC1
1		 02:25:15.9
 02:25:15.9 00:00:00.0
00:00:00.0
2 9
NOR
2		 Mikkelsen A. / Jæger Anders
Citroën C3 WRC  		RC1
2		 02:25:40.7
 02:25:40.7 00:00:24.8
00:00:24.8
3 1
FRA
3		 Ogier S. / Ingrassia J.
Ford Fiesta WRC  		RC1
3		 02:25:47.7
 02:25:47.7 00:00:31.8
00:00:07.0
4 3
GBR
5		 Evans Elfyn / Barritt Daniel
Ford Fiesta WRC  		RC1
4		 02:27:02.9
 02:27:02.9 00:01:47.0
00:01:15.2
5 11
FIN
4		 Hänninen Juho / Lindström Kaj
Toyota Yaris WRC  		RC1
5		 02:27:03.2
 02:27:03.2 00:01:47.3
00:00:00.3
6 8
IRL
6		 Breen Craig / Martin Scott
Citroën C3 WRC  		RC1
6		 02:27:18.3
 02:27:18.3 00:02:02.4
00:00:15.1
7 10
FIN
7		 Latvala J. / Anttila Miikka
Toyota Yaris WRC  		RC1
7		 02:29:25.1
 02:29:25.1 00:04:09.2
00:02:06.8
8 4
NZL
8		 Paddon Hayden / Marshall S.
Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC  		RC1
8		 02:29:49.0
 02:29:49.0 00:04:33.1
00:00:23.9
9 33
FRA
9		 Camilli Eric / Veillas B.
Ford Fiesta R5  		RC2
1		 02:33:32.3
 02:33:32.3 00:08:16.4
00:03:43.3
10 14
DEU
10		 Kremer Armin / Winklhofer P.
Ford Fiesta WRC  		RC1
9		 02:33:45.8
00:00:10.0		 02:33:55.8 00:08:39.9
00:00:23.5
11 34
CZE
12		 Kopecký Jan / Dresler Pavel
Škoda Fabia R5  		RC2
2		 02:34:49.1
 02:34:49.1 00:09:33.2
00:00:53.3
12 31
SWE
11		 Tidemand Pontus / Andersson Jonas
Škoda Fabia R5  		RC2
3		 02:34:52.4
 02:34:52.4 00:09:36.5
00:00:03.3
13 40
GBR
13		 Greensmith Gus / Parry Craig
Ford Fiesta R5  		RC2
4		 02:35:34.1
 02:35:34.1 00:10:18.2
00:00:41.7
14 39
FRA
14		 Gilbert Quentin / Jamoul Renaud
Škoda Fabia R5  		RC2
5		 02:36:26.4
 02:36:26.4 00:11:10.5
00:00:52.3
15 32
FIN
15		 Suninen Teemu / Markkula Mikko
Ford Fiesta R5  		RC2
6		 02:36:34.9
 02:36:34.9 00:11:19.0
00:00:08.5
16 37
ROU
16		 Tempestini S. / Bernacchini G.
Citroën DS3 R5  		RC2
7		 02:37:04.6
 02:37:04.6 00:11:48.7
00:00:29.7
17 42
FRA
17		 Loubet P. / Landais Vincent
Ford Fiesta R5  		RC2
8		 02:37:12.2
 02:37:12.2 00:11:56.3
00:00:07.6
18 41
DEU
18		 Griebel Marijan / Kopczyk Stefan
Škoda Fabia R5  		RC2
9		 02:38:20.5
 02:38:20.5 00:13:04.6
00:01:08.3
19 36
MEX
19		 Guerra Benito / Cue Daniel
Škoda Fabia R5  		RC2
10		 02:39:00.0
 02:39:00.0 00:13:44.1
00:00:39.5
20 47
NLD
20		 Ten Brinke B. / Thierie Davy
Škoda Fabia R5  		RC2
11		 02:40:03.6
 02:40:03.6 00:14:47.7
00:01:03.6
21 44
SWE
21		 Bergkvist Emil / Fløene Ola
Citroën DS3 R5  		RC2
12		 02:40:27.9
 02:40:27.9 00:15:12.0
00:00:24.3
22 12
FIN
24		 Lappi Esapekka / Ferm Janne
Toyota Yaris WRC  		RC1
10		 02:42:58.3
 02:42:58.3 00:17:42.4
00:02:30.4
23 72
KOR
22		 Lim Chewon / Wydaeghe M.
Hyundai i20 R5  		RC2
13		 02:43:39.3
 02:43:39.3 00:18:23.4
00:00:41.0
24 22
FRA
23		 Raoux J. / Galmiche I.
Citroën DS3 WRC  		RC1
11		 02:44:11.9
 02:44:11.9 00:18:56.0
00:00:32.6
25 43
POL
26		 Pieniążek Ł. / Mazur P.
Peugeot 208 T16  		RC2
14		 02:44:56.9
 02:44:56.9 00:19:41.0
00:00:45.0
26 23
BEL
27		 Serderidis J. / Miclotte F.
Citroën DS3 WRC  		RC1
12		 02:45:41.3
 02:45:41.3 00:20:25.4
00:00:44.4
27 45
FRA
29		 Bonato Yoann / Boulloud B.
Citroën DS3 R5  		RC2
15		 02:45:43.9
00:00:20.0		 02:46:03.9 00:20:48.0
00:00:22.6
28 76
FIN
31		 Huttunen Jari / Linnaketo Antti
Opel Adam R2  		RC4
1		 02:49:20.3
 02:49:20.3 00:24:04.4
00:03:16.4
29 7
GBR
25		 Meeke Kris / Nagle Paul
Citroën C3 WRC  		RC1
13		 02:50:44.8
 02:50:44.8 00:25:28.9
00:01:24.5
30 80
IRL
33		 Boland Eamonn / Morrissey M.
Ford Fiesta R5  		RC2
16		 02:50:54.0
 02:50:54.0 00:25:38.1
00:00:09.2
31 78
DEU
35		 Gassner H. / Kramer Jasmin
Toyota GT86 CS-R3  		RC3
1		 02:51:02.0
 02:51:02.0 00:25:46.1
00:00:08.0
32 73
BEL
34		 Fumal Armand / Louette Michael
Citroën DS3 R5  		RC2
17		 02:51:06.7
 02:51:06.7 00:25:50.8
00:00:04.7
33 77
NLD
36		 Van der Marel T. / Van der Marel R.
Opel Adam R2  		RC4
2		 02:51:25.2
 02:51:25.2 00:26:09.3
00:00:18.5
34 71
DEU
28		 Kreim Fabian / Christian Frank
Škoda Fabia R5  		RC2
18		 02:51:59.1
 02:51:59.1 00:26:43.2
00:00:33.9
35 66
DEU
37		 Tannert Julius / Heigl Jürgen
Ford Fiesta R2T  		RC4
3		 02:52:09.1
 02:52:09.1 00:26:53.2
00:00:10.0
36 75
DEU
30		 Gassner Hermann / Thannhäuser K.
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X  		RC2
19		 02:54:30.2
 02:54:30.2 00:29:14.3
00:02:21.1
37 49
NLD
32		 Schilt Edwin / Bakker Lisette
Škoda Fabia R5  		RC2
20		 02:55:35.8
 02:55:35.8 00:30:19.9
00:01:05.6
38 48
GBR
38		 Armstrong Jon / O’Sullivan N.
Ford Fiesta R5  		RC2
21		 02:56:37.8
 02:56:37.8 00:31:21.9
00:01:02.0
39 74
CZE
39		 Rujbr Patrik / Římalová V.
Škoda Fabia R5  		RC2
22		 02:59:39.6
 02:59:39.6 00:34:23.7
00:03:01.8
40 6
ESP
42		 Sordo Dani / Martí Marc
Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC  		RC1
14		 03:00:29.0
 03:00:29.0 00:35:13.1
00:00:49.4
41 88
DEU
40		 Gropp Uwe / Ostlender Hanna
Citroën DS3 R3T  		RC3
2		 03:00:48.2
 03:00:48.2 00:35:32.3
00:00:19.2
42 86
FIN
41		 Lario Taisko / Hämäläinen T.
Peugeot 208 R2  		RC4
4		 03:01:14.1
 03:01:14.1 00:35:58.2
00:00:25.9
43 61
FRA
43		 Astier Raphaël / Vauclare F.
Peugeot 208 R2  		RC4
5		 03:00:39.8
00:02:20.0		 03:02:59.8 00:37:43.9
00:01:45.7
44 62
ITA
44		 Brazzoli Enrico / Barone Maurizio
Peugeot 208 R2  		RC4
6		 03:04:20.1
 03:04:20.1 00:39:04.2
00:01:20.3
45 63
ESP
45		 Solans Nil / Ibañez Miquel
Ford Fiesta R2T  		RC4
7		 03:04:42.8
 03:04:42.8 00:39:26.9
00:00:22.7
46 64
FRA
46		 Ciamin Nicolas / De La Haye T.
Ford Fiesta R2T  		RC4
8		 03:01:55.7
00:04:20.0		 03:06:15.7 00:40:59.8
00:01:32.9
47 83
DEU
47		 Klein Marius / Grimberg H.
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X  		RC2
23		 03:07:30.0
 03:07:30.0 00:42:14.1
00:01:14.3
48 95
DEU
49		 Hohlheimer J. / Sanesi Sandro
Renault Twingo R2  		RC4
9		 03:10:45.4
 03:10:45.4 00:45:29.5
00:03:15.4
49 79
NLD
51		 Vossen Henk / Van Barschot S.
Ford Fiesta R5  		RC2
24		 03:12:06.0
00:00:20.0		 03:12:26.0 00:47:10.1
00:01:40.6
50 87
FRA
52		 Wendling Y. / Di Nisi Laurent
Peugeot 208 R2  		RC4
10		 03:13:39.4
 03:13:39.4 00:48:23.5
00:01:13.4
51 91
DEU
53		 Lauer Frank / Brack Martin
Citroën DS3 R3T  		RC3
3		 03:13:46.3
00:00:10.0		 03:13:56.3 00:48:40.4
00:00:16.9
52 38
FRA
54		 Rossel Yohan / Fulcrand B.
Citroën DS3 R5  		RC2
25		 03:09:35.9
00:05:00.0		 03:14:35.9 00:49:20.0
00:00:39.6
53 5
BEL
48		 Neuville T. / Gilsoul Nicolas
Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC  		RC1
15		 03:14:44.4
 03:14:44.4 00:49:28.5
00:00:08.5
54 81
BEL
50		 Molle Amaury / Herman Renaud
Peugeot 208 R2  		RC4
11		 03:18:32.0
00:00:10.0		 03:18:42.0 00:53:26.1
00:03:57.6
55 90
ITA
55		 Molinaro Tamara / Engan Veronica
Opel Adam R2  		RC4
12		 03:24:11.9
00:01:20.0		 03:25:31.9 01:00:16.0
00:06:49.9
56 94
DEU
56		 Ehlhardt W. / Michel Helmut
Opel Astra OPC  		RC2
26		 03:32:15.7
00:00:20.0		 03:32:35.7 01:07:19.8
00:07:03.8
57 93
DEU
57		 Wecker Josef / Clemens Stefan
Renault Clio R3T  		RC3
4		 03:38:04.4
 03:38:04.4 01:12:48.5
00:05:28.7
58 65
FRA
58		 Folb Terry / Guieu C.
Ford Fiesta R2T  		RC4
13		 03:39:18.6
 03:39:18.6 01:14:02.7
00:01:14.2
59 96
DEU
59		 Bächle C. / Brack Isabelle
Citroën DS3 R1  		RC5
1		 03:44:41.8
00:00:10.0		 03:44:51.8 01:19:35.9
00:05:33.2
60 89
GBR
60		 Williams Tom / Hall Philip
Ford Fiesta R2  		RC4
14		 04:09:27.4
 04:09:27.4 01:44:11.5
00:24:35.6
INFORMATION ABOUT SS 16
retired (45 - Bonato Yoann / Boulloud Benjamin): retired after SS 16
flash info (6 - Sordo Dani / Martí Marc): We had a lot of understeer. We lost a lot in the long corners.
flash info (12 - Lappi Esapekka / Ferm Janne): I thought it was a good stage but again the time is not good. I don't understand it...
flash info (2 - Tänak Ott / Järveoja Martin): Driving cleanly. The conditions are enjoyable.
flash info (9 - Mikkelsen Andreas / Jæger Anders): I think both me and Seb (Ogier) are pushing to the maximum. My confidence in the car is getting better and better with each kilometre.
flash info (1 - Ogier Sébastien / Ingrassia Julien): I cannot go for crazy risks for an extra three points but I keep the pressure on and see what happens. Good grip now in this stage.
flash info (3 - Evans Elfyn / Barritt Daniel): As good as we could have hoped on the cross tyres. A bit unfair on Juho, I know he has a problem...
flash info (8 - Breen Craig / Martin Scott): Not as nervous as before. Not a million miles away from the guys ahead now. We'll keep the push on.
flash info (11 - Hänninen Juho / Lindström Kaj): Missing one damper on this stage. Not easy.
flash info (4 - Paddon Hayden / Marshall Sebastian): Cutting the bales a bit in here again.
flash info (14 - Kremer Armin / Winklhofer Pirmin): Tricky like before but ok.